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The
following is an interview conducted via email in 2009 by a zen website.
1. Please provide us with a biographical background, to give us some more details about your life and path.
Thich Dieu-Thien was born in 1971, and her earliest memories already had the knowing that the world around her was filled with suffering and yet there was another “true home” free from suffering that she needed to find. At age 13, there were two key events; hearing the story of the Buddha’s life and similar quest, which pointed her toward temple life, and then meeting a unique nun who seemed to embody her goal, which inspired her to plead for ordination. She then began a 17 year period of constantly seeking books, teachers, recorded talks, and especially applying many practice methods . . . searching every possible medium in any tradition for clues or instructions about how to truly end suffering. At age 18, Thich Dieu-Thien’s long-awaited ordination ceremony happened in 1989 in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon), Vietnam at Linh Son Temple. It was a grand and unparalleled celebration by over 200 senior monks and nuns. Seeing her clarity and diligence, she was urged to develop further knowledge that might support her search. She graduated from a six year program in Buddhist studies at Ni Vien Thien Hoa University in Vietnam, moved to the USA in 1994 and completed both a bachelors and masters degree in religious studies from Western Michigan University by 2000. However, with devastating disappointment, she saw what she found in academics and in the countless other efforts from the outside world offered clear knowledge, insight and temporary relief, but not freedom in any situation. She knew suffering still happened, and therefore her quest was unresolved. Then one extreme situation presented itself, and she saw with certainty that suffering came from inside, the result of the unfulfilled desires held within. But how to end it? She had nowhere else to turn and in a final no-holds-barred effort, she abandoned all convention and traveled literally around the world, meeting with many famous teachers, teachings, and help, vowing not to return until she had reached her goal. During her travels, she was brought to meet someone said to be a genuine “arahat” and she invested every bit of last hope into the meeting, only to find that he spoke of nothing relevant to suffering, its cause nor the end of suffering. Exhausted in every way and at the end of all hope, she had to face the undeniable conclusion: she would have to find out for herself. Throughout her life many people implored her to teach, to share what she knew, to help others on the path. Yet she rarely spoke, and only with great reluctance, knowing she had not yet found the answer to her question. Until finally in 2001 when the quest was resolved fully and completely, and from her experience she began to teach anyone anywhere who was willing to look within and find the source of their suffering.
2.
So, Dieu-Thien, how did you first become involved in Zen practice?
If you want to know the first moment that I truly became involved in Zen practice, it was when I had already been struggling for over 20 years. I had been suffering deeply but I didn't know what to do with it. I could not run away, or use my mind to solve it. I could not do anything but truly touch suffering because I deeply knew that nothing in this world could help me and therefore I had no choice but to stay stuck in the struggle and touch the suffering. Only at that moment, I finally saw where suffering comes from, who makes me suffer and why. Then I clearly knew that is what the Buddha was teaching, and that is the meaning of Zen-- to see the whole system of suffering all the way to the source and wake up. Before that moment, I heard of zen, knew there were books, etc. but the idea and the knowledge did not connect with me.
3. Tell us who your teachers have been and also a bit about them.
My only teacher was suffering. Suffering is the feeling of sadness, anger, fear, irritation, worry, jealousy, anxiety, depression, restlessness … all coming from the desire for deep satisfaction but the lacking of it. For my situation, the deep suffering came from being constantly faced with the fact that everything and everyone in the world around me was changing, fading, dying and inherently unsafe. Nothing lasted, nothing was forever, and I wanted things to be stable and unchanging, but nothing in this world matched that. Since early childhood, this pervasive fear was coupled with some deep knowing that there is some sort of place, or a state of mind, or a way to live whereby inside myself there would be permanent freedom from suffering in any condition despite the terrible, unacceptable realities of the world around me. Yet… the way to reach that was completely clouded over, a mystery. The more I suffered, the more I searched. The more I couldn’t find it, the more I suffered. The wheel spun faster and tighter year by year, consuming every thought and activity. Even though I had a normal life, upbringing and family in Vietnam, I took no interest in the things, activities and people around me. I had only one thing to do, one thing to find, and one question to answer. I heard words like enlightenment, liberation, unborn mind, and I knew with total certainty that those were true, possible, real. But HOW to get there? When I was about 12 or 13 years old, I had a chance to visit a temple. While there, I picked up a book and began to read and I learned that Siddhartha was a prince who had everything yet he was consumed by the reality that everything changes and dies. He could not accept that so he searched for an answer and in the end he found out the way to end all suffering and be free. That news was my first piece of hope to fulfill my life’s quest. Because of that, I wanted to ordain as soon as possible, but was denied until the normal age of 18. As a nun, I carried my burning question with me, and I continued my constant seeking, starving for some way to get the permanent solution I sought, some answer to end this suffering. Despite countless books, methods and teachers, there was nothing and no one to satisfy my quest of more than 20 long years. Then finally I faced an extreme situation that provided a breaking point whereby I saw the absolute connection between the feelings of suffering as a result of the intense desire for something I could not get. I knew then that because the desire was from inside myself, that the source of the desire was further inside and I turned 100% of my focus inward, knowing that any outside object or situation was neither the cause nor the source. From here, I left my temple, began to travel around the world, and continued my inward struggle . . . but I still hoped that some awakened teacher could show me the last steps. However, it was not until I was stuck in one last extreme situation where I finally realized what is suffering, where suffering comes from, why I suffer, who makes me suffer and then what is I.
4. I've read that something you want students to return to their "Unborn Mind”, which is a term that Bankei and Huang-po were fond of using. What is the Unborn Mind?
Unborn Mind is the mind where there is no longer holding or attachment, no suffering – no sadness, anger, fear, etc.… To experience unborn mind, you must go through the doorway of suffering. Touch suffering and look back inside to realize, from shallow to deep, the whole system of suffering (from the feeling of suffering to the source), and the nature of it.
5. What are some of the defining characteristics of the Vietnamese approach to Zen Buddhism?
A defining characteristic of the Vietnamese approach to Zen Buddhism is the same as any other nationality’s approach to Zen Buddhism; the misunderstanding of often focusing intention on the resulting liberation instead of focusing on the problem of suffering. We all have the motivation to learn something, do something and be something so that suffering does not happen anymore. Often we seek another world or state of mind where problems do not arise, so we can feel safe and comfortable in any condition. Therefore we seek it with sincerity and diligence. However, we are seeking something outside ourselves, an idea or a result, fueled by desire. Then when suffering continues to happen, the desire to be rid of it increases and we try harder, and thusly suffer more. At this point we will either question this problematic circle, or stay lost within it and find ways to accept it, cover it with busyness, try to manage suffering, etc. However, if we are truly honest, we admit the suffering is still there. Now, if we question the fact that we are still stuck in a circle and the suffering still repeats, then we have the motivation and are willing to look back inside again to re-admit our suffering and investigate the system of suffering. When we find out the source and nature of it, we will truly know Zen Buddhism.
For me, Zen Buddhism is the path that aims to end suffering. In order to end suffering, instead of running away from suffering, rejecting suffering, searching for some distraction, or trying to manage suffering, you need to look within to admit, face and touch suffering. In there you will find out the root and nature of it, and that is liberation, awakening, enlightenment, unborn mind, unconditional peace and love.
6. You are currently living and teaching at Universal Door Meditation Center in Houston, Texas. Tell us about your sangha there and relations with other Buddhist organizations of your area.
Our sangha is composed of both men and women, teens to elders, with different backgrounds, religions and ethnicities. Those who come to our Center are in one of four general groups. First are a few people who have deep questions about the inherent impermanence and dissatisfaction of this life and do not connect with this world, feel stuck and seek the way through. The second and more common type of person is the one who comes because there is some kind of suffering happening in their daily life which they cannot resolve. The feelings of suffering, like sadness, anger, fear, irritation, worry, jealousy, anxiety, depression, stress, and restlessness continue to happen and grow despite various methods or activities to make the suffering go away. For the third group of people, they have everything on the outside, like stable work, house, family, nice car, etc. but none of these things can bring any lasting comfort or ease to their life and they question themselves about why they still cannot feel OK. The fourth group of people is different in that they come because their life is already “good” but they are looking for something to make it better, more stable, more peaceful, for deeper understandings, or to try and help someone else. They have heard about the possible results from awakening and they are seeking a higher level in their life. From there, we help them to look within, honestly and carefully, at why they still need something more, why they are not good, stable or peaceful enough, and admit any feelings of discontent, restlessness, unhappiness, desire and fear of “not enough”. For both monastics and lay people, everything we do at the Center aims to the purpose of admitting our suffering and working with it until the root is realized. Based on this, we are open and harmonious with the large variety of groups, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, in the Houston area.
7. What book, or books, might you recommend to someone interested in Zen?
For someone interested in Zen, I recommend you open and look within to see, recognize and touch the suffering happening within you. In there you will discover the system, the source and the nature of it. The feeling of suffering is the first page of the book, and the source is the last page. This is really the most interesting “living book” I recommend you read as often as possible until you finish it.
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